“One thing that jumped out at me after seeing Part 1 online,” Eric wrote me Monday night, “is my comment about how I could clear a high jump bar from a standstill. I figured someone might comment on that because it sounds incredible, but I hope they don’t think I meant I had a five foot vertical leap. If I did, I would have had an NBA career. As long as I could jump high enough for my navel to reach the height of the bar, I was acrobatic enough to kick my legs up over my head and flip over the bar. Others had to get a running start, leap in the air with their bodies horizontal and hope their backs cleared the bar. I just wanted to clarify. The big point is that I was pretty small, acrobatic and flexible at that age, all of which helped me endure abnormal abuse, I think.”
Having made that correction, let’s continue where we left off.
BW. Readers have repeatedly expressed amazement that you didn’t end up in the ER or dead, both from the physical tortures that were done to you, and because of your disregard of personal hygiene (that shitty toothbrush again).
ET. They’re absolutely right, and we’ve said this before. Many of our activities were crazy, stupid, dumb, ignorant. But try to remember that we were adolescent boys who still lacked reasoning skills and thought ourselves indestructible. Look around you. It’s still happening every day. Haven’t you seen all the “jackass” videos and other dangerous stunts on YouTube? Do you think a 16-year-old boy leaping off the roof of a two story building holding a bed sheet as a parachute has good reasoning skills? Or that a kid riding his bicycle off the roof of his house into a swimming pool has thought out the consequences of failure? Well, we didn’t do those same stunts. Instead of riding my bicycle into the swimming pool, I let myself be tied down and tortured senseless plenty of times.
As for the shitty toothbrush, what I felt most was total shame. All I wanted to do when it was over was to lay on the floor, sobbing and feeling sorry for myself. I loved feeling sorry for myself, especially when I was defeated or deeply humiliated. Really humiliating activities can often break me down into a pitiful, weeping, defeated blob of flesh.
Sometimes I still summon that self-pity. I hated that in myself, and still do. I should have been stronger. I should have been tougher.
Remember, on some level, I felt I deserved what was happening to me. I felt that it served me right for being the despicable creature I thought I was. Emotions like that can be paralyzing. I wasn’t thinking about cleaning myself up, not right away. All I wanted to do was die like the worthless worm I was. I felt I could never look anyone in the eye again, especially Logan or Dylan.
There’s no doubt that the toothbrush incident was absolutely gross. But when you consider all the times they made me lick a dirty toilet, or drink unflushed toilet water, or drink their piss (or mine), it didn’t rank all that high with me. It could have been worse—Logan could have crammed the toothbrush up his own butt and then brushed my teeth. That would have made me puke for sure.
We weren’t “into” this sort of thing, mind you. If we had all sat down and planned out our activities in advance, I certainly would have excluded licking toilets, drinking piss and having my teeth brushed by a grungy toothbrush. I repeat, those types of activities didn’t turn us on sexually, unless it was completely subconscious on all our parts. For us, it was all about the humiliation. Think of the power Logan and Dylan must have felt watching me take this abuse, or giving commands and watching me obey.
However, there were never any restrictions on our activities. Somewhere inside, we all knew they wouldn’t harm me or maim me intentionally. Once that was unspokenly established, they were free to do whatever they wanted to do. From my viewpoint, that’s the way it had to be.
BW: Has that changed in adulthood?
ET. I have had several Doms as an adult. As a general rule, we “play” much safer, although many might question some of the things we do. We usually set general boundaries, and sometimes have strict limits and taboos. We might even have a safe word, although I personally don’t like them. The limits we set usually depend on the Dom, how compatible we are and how much I trust him.
Afterwards, we usually have feedback. Sometimes it is immediate. We might even go out for a meal and discuss what happened, what was good and what was not. Sometimes we reflect back several days later through emails after we have had time to absorb what happened.
As a kid, that type of feedback never occurred. We didn’t consider what we did to be “play.”
Now that I think about it, I suppose there was feedback—of a sort. First, I provided Logan and Dylan with a huge box of materials I had collected about torture (war stories, medieval tortures, stories about sadistic serial killers). I had done plenty of research on the subject, and every time I read about a new idea, I shared it with them. I wanted them to use the material to concoct scenarios of their own. They did, but they were also creative and came up with their own ideas and variations.
Second, when they became lax or sympathetic, I criticized them for being too easy on me. Or when they did something that might have permanently injured me, I argued with them about it. I never said I was the best slave/prisoner/captive/victim. I’m sure I kept them pretty confused. I haven’t written about many of these discussions because I can’t write about everything.
But if you think that while I was being tortured or humiliated or bossed around, Logan or Dylan leaned over and whispered in my ear, “Are you okay?” or “Is this what you want?” well then I would have to roll on the floor laughing. Or if you think that they sat down with me after a rough activity and asked me how I liked it, well, that never happened.
From their point of view, if I could stand and walk (albeit with a limp) within an hour or two, then it must have been okay.
Look, Logan and Dylan weren’t imbeciles. They were both pretty sharp guys. They could tell by looking at me if the activity was getting dangerous, at least when they stayed around. Probably the most dangerous thing they did to me was to tie me up, often well gagged, and leave me alone for hours at a time. Now that was pretty dumb and really dangerous.
BW. Did it bother you, as it did one reader, that Logan and Dylan forced you to be their slave for a whole year without negotiating it with you beforehand?
ET. Not at all. I thought it was daring and hot. They knew I wanted to know what it was like to be utterly controlled. In “real life” I am strong willed and dominating, maybe even a tad arrogant. I hate those qualities in myself, but that’s who I am. I love to cast off my real personality and be forced into submission.
Even today, I love to set up kidnapping scenarios where I let the Dom kidnap me and hold me in captivity doing whatever he wishes to me. How long I don’t know, where I don’t know, and whatever dark things may come my way I don’t know. It’s scary for sure while it’s unfolding, but it’s also very satisfying to me. Of course, I only do that with Doms I know and trust very well.
BW. More than one reader was horrified and incredulous by the incident with the fork put in boiling water and held against your skin for eight seconds without doing you serious injury. He wrote, “I once worked in a restaurant and we served food on metal skillets that were heated on the stove over a gas flame to keep the food warm. Then we would place the skillet on a wooden plank and serve it to the customer. Once, I accidentally touched one of those hot metal skillets for just a second and it burned me severely. If Eric had been burned with that hot fork for eight seconds, he would have suffered horrific burns. It makes his story hard to believe.”
ET. Faulty comparison. I have a fair amount of scientific expertise so can say that with authority.
The skillet the reader describes had 50 times the mass of the fork Logan used, so was able to absorb 50 times the heat due to mass alone. Plus, the skillet likely had a temperature of well over 1000 degrees Fahrenheit, while the fork was only around 200 degrees Fahrenheit (the temperature of boiling water).
Because the fork was so small and not as hot, it would have transferred virtually all of the heat it had available to give to me within the first second. Holding it in place for eight seconds, or thirty seconds for that matter, would not have burned me any more.
Now if Logan had heated the fork over an open flame like a candle or a gas stove or a fireplace, then we would have had an altogether different scenario. As it was, the fork placed in boiling water could only reach the temperature of the boiling water. It could not become hotter than the water was.
In the case of the skillet, the much higher temperature would have multiplied the heat content of the skillet far more. If anyone had contact with the skillet for eight seconds, he would need treatment in the emergency room.
BW. A reader writes, “I’m a Dom, and I only have a certain bag of tricks that I use with my subs over and over. I get the impression Logan and Dylan almost never repeated themselves. I know kids can be endlessly inventive, but while I’d never do some of the things to my subs that [the brothers] did to Eric, I have to take my hat off to them for creativity.”
ET. They were very inventive—I helped out there, by giving them loads of reading material—but don’t be fooled. They often repeated the tortures and other activities that I have described. You may only hear about them the first time, or the most memorable and interesting time. But few of the events I’ve described happened only once. For example, they soaked my feet in slushy ice water all the time. They loved doing that. It was brutal, but was easy for them to do. Fortunately, it never seemed to cause me injury. I don’t recommend anyone try it, though. I would hate for someone to lose a couple of toes from frostbite. I didn’t, but I could have.
And Dylan strung me up in the garage and used me as his karate punching bag a lot. You heard about it only the first time it happened but he did it quite a bit. And I had to lick the toilet plenty.
We all liked trying new stuff, but often they found certain things that they liked to do. And they did them over and over and over. Perhaps I should have been clearer in my accounts about that, but I thought it would sound repetitive to describe the same things ten times. However, if readers want me to, I will.
BW. I think just reminding them of that from time to time will do. Another reader wonders how you ever managed to recover from the almost constant torture.
ET. But it wasn’t constant, please believe that. My relationship with Logan, Dylan (and occasionally Graham) was not a 24/7/365 torture fest. Most of the time, we were just normal teenaged kids who went to school, did our homework and the things normal teenaged kids did back then. We hung out at the mall, we water skied, we played basketball and other sports, we swam, we skateboarded and rollerskated (I was never good at either one), and we camped out and fished. The only difference was that, as I said before, they were always ultimately in control and I was subservient to them.
At most we did the torture games 10% or 20% of the time. I probably spend a disproportionate amount of time writing about the tortures, because they were interesting to me, but really, it didn’t happen every day. Mostly, Logan and Dylan simply worked my ass off and bossed me around, treating me like a real slave, putting me to work doing chores they would have had to do themselves. They were abusive, it’s true, but I needed them to be. Sometimes the abuse was punishment because I was not always best at obeying orders. In fact, I am pretty bad at being submissive at times. I can never totally lose that true personality of mine.
They did tie me up a lot and for long periods of time. Maybe I should focus on that more, although the positions and the lengths of time I was tied were sometimes very torturous in themselves. Logan was the absolute best at tying people up. When he tied you up, you didn’t escape unless he wanted you to. His positions could be very tough to take.
BW. Speaking for myself, I do wish you’d write more about the bondage, though I’d hardly want you to skimp on anything else, either. I guess I’m a glutton for more of everything. And while we’re on the subject, did you ever feel that you’d had enough, and that you didn’t want any more, of any of it?
ET. Sometimes, when it was going on, I wondered if it would ever stop, but the truth is that as soon as I got over the effects of the last torture, I usually began wanting it to happen again. I know that if we went a couple of weeks without playing a torture game, I would push for one. Most of the time, we had a time limit on the game and some bit of information they had to extract within that time limit. That made it more interesting. It was sort of like having a code word for the activities to stop. In other words, when the torture became too unbearable, I could give up the information and the game was over.
Often I had to pay an extra penalty for losing. Occasionally Logan and Dylan added the treat that they would have to pay some penalty if I won.
BW. But couldn’t they always have won, if they’d wanted to?
ET. Yes, of course. And they probably could have done it pretty quickly, too. I can take a lot of abuse, but I’m not Superman.
BW. So when they lost, it was on purpose?
ET. I’d have to say yes.
BW. How often did they let you win?
ET. About half the time, I’d say. Of course, Logan never actually told me he was doing that, but I knew it. Dylan learned to do it, too, over time. They both became really good at pushing me to the limits of my endurance, right up to the edge, and then backing off.
BW. Why do you think they backed off?
ET. Part of the reason was because I would get very depressed when I lost, especially if I lost too often or too quickly. Letting me win helped my self-esteem. But another part of it was because, deep down, I suspect—especially if it meant they had to pay a consequence for losing—they wanted to be on the submissive end themselves, although they would die before admitting that.
I don't think that Logan and Dylan liked being on the receiving end often, but I think they liked it occasionally. And I think they liked the thrill of having a game where there were consequences for losing. They were the consummate gamblers. If you recall, I noticed that about Logan early on, and I used it to get us started down this long road of bondage.
BW. Do you think that you all really knew what was going on in those games, even if you didn’t discuss it?
ET. I think so. I’m sure that Logan understood from the very beginning that part of the game was allowing me to experience the suffering that I needed, for whatever twisted psychological reasons I had, without breaking me down too soon. Dylan was not so understanding initially, so Logan had to rein him in. Eventually Dylan did understand. They would give me a good dose of abuse, but they would often back off before I got to the breaking point.
BW. The times you’ve told us about, where they had to pay the consequences for losing, you seem to have been very soft-hearted with them. I’d love to hear about some of the times when you weren’t.
ET. I’m not sure that I was all that soft-hearted, although I realized after I had dominated them a couple of times that I didn’t enjoy seeing them suffer. I think it was more that I knew I was the one who wanted to be abused, but they never asked to be. On the other hand, they were more than willing to take what they dished out when the tables did get turned. Especially Dylan. He took abuse when he was being dominated that I could only dream about. I was actually jealous of him, as well as Logan, in a good way for that. I sort of envied them. They just weren’t motivated to want to take abuse all the time, the way I was.
There may have been a couple of times I was pretty tough on them. And Graham was really tough when he got the chance. Rather than going into that here, let me wait until the proper time in sequence to describe those times.
BW. I can’t wait. One thing I need to get clarified: Were the tortures always done as games?
ET. No, not always. We loved playing torture games, but sometimes Logan and Dylan just felt like torturing me, either to make sure I understood my status with them, or because they just felt like it, and then they did it with no time limits for as long as they wanted.
BW. So they would just go on and on, even after you pleaded with them to stop?
ET. Give them credit for being smart enough to know when I was about to be really hurt and things were about to go over the top—by our definition.
Sometimes, they would tie me up painfully tight in a difficult position, which was really a form of torture. Then they would leave me for long periods of time. So they were not always around when I had reached my limit, so to speak. I know that was really stupid, but they did that a lot. Often I was even gagged. I have yet to write about some of those things.
BW. Again, I can’t wait to read about them.
ET. They’re coming.
BW. I don’t want to harp on subjects we’ve already covered, but let’s conclude with your answer to this final comment from a reader: “The pain inflicted on Eric time and again is simply incredible. I can’t even imagine having a scalding hot fork applied to your nipples for 8-10 seconds, after being whipped there, followed by clothespins being applied! Passing out would have been a blessing to Eric and Graham. Using a pair of pliers to twist Graham’s balls, is going over the limit too, as far as I’m concerned. The brothers seemed to be getting far too sadistic in their games.”
ET. One last time: a fork heated to 200 degrees Fahrenheit is not going to make you pass out. It may hurt like a bitch, but it’s not like being branded with a red hot poker. Let’s stop overthinking all of this. Chill out.
As for the pliers, Logan and Dylan always used the common tools and instruments we had on hand like pliers, clamps, axe handles, and many other items to inflict pain. They squeezed toes and fingers and balls, pulling and twisting and stretching and bashing. But give them credit for having at least a meager amount of brains. They knew that they could inflict serious pain with these devices without causing serious or permanent injury.
In closing, let me say that I have tried to defend my two friends—and Logan and Dylan are still my friends today—by saying they were not sadists. But okay, yes, they did have a cruel streak. I doubt most people would be comfortable abusing someone the way Logan and Dylan did me, even if that person wanted to be abused, as I did. Their cruel streak is what drew me to them, but what they did, they did for me. I’m not going to deny that they didn’t enjoy watching me suffer. The point is, I noticed that characteristic about them, and I exploited it. I don’t think they would have volunteered to do what they did had I not set things in motion.
It was no accident that Logan and I became good friends. I had a purpose in seeking him out.
It seems 2B a really magical threesome.
Posted by: Bob Dooman | October 31, 2012 at 12:52 PM
Many thanks to you both for this two-part interview. Eric, your story is so intense (and scary) I think it's important to get this factual background on what was really going on. And Bob, while the stories you publish can sometimes be extreme, there's often the possibility of a fictional "out" when the action gets questionable. I never get this feeling with Eric's accounts--they ring true, which makes these interviewed explanations all the more important. Talk about a charmed life! These teenage adventures could have "gone south" many times. Glad you're still around to tell about them.
Posted by: Mike S | October 31, 2012 at 08:20 PM
Eric, your knowledge of many things impresses me. The hot fork is one example but there is/was more potential risk than you admit to. Your explanation of the hot fork probably is factual but the risk was Logan. While you may have seen how he heated the fork and mentally calculated that it was OK, was Logan as well educated in the process you described? If he had heated the fork in another manner and out of your view, then the results may have led to the ER. You described a previous experience with boiling water that you called to a halt because you could see the visit to the ER looming. Boiling water can harm the skin and Logan didn't seem to be aware of that then. You took the risk of relying on the boys to use caution but your safety often depended upon good luck.
I am not trying to discredit what you say but sometimes your explanations are more to justify your actions after the fact than to evaluate risks prior to the actions. You have experienced a charmed existence for which I am truly grateful.
Posted by: [email protected] | November 02, 2012 at 09:52 AM